John Jay Papers
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From John Jay to Thomas Jefferson, 14 December 1786

To Thomas Jefferson

Office for for: Affairs, 14 Decr. 1786

Dr Sir

My last to you was dated 27 October by the way of London since which I have been honored with yours of the 11 and 13 August—1 They both arrived the 23 november ^ult^, and ^November, but^ Congress not having made a House since the 7th. of that month, they have not yet been comm officially communicated.

The Information relative to Sr. Guy Carletons Instructions is in direct opposition to Intelligence I have recd. on the same Subject from Persons in London who have opportunities of knowing the Truth, and whose Credit and is unquestionable—The It is possible however that they may have been either accidentally or designedly deceived.2 a variety of Considerations and some Facts induce at least a afford much Room for Suspicions, that there is an understanding between the Insurgents in Massachusetts and some leading Persons in Canada, but whether with or without the ^consent or^ Connivance of the british Governmt., is still doubtful to be ascertained. Private Informatio ^There is E so^ much Evidence of their having sent Emissaries to Quebec, and of Propositions made ^to^ and recd. by them from an Character of Distinction there, that I am induced to think there is at least some Truth in it—

A Report has also circulated that the Insurgents have money, and pay not only for supplies & ammunition, but also for personal Services—This Fact is as yet supported by slender Proof, so much so that my Judgmt. remains undecided and in suspense about it. There are Intimations have been given that the People of Vermont have are less and less anxious to be admitted into the Confederacy and that they rather incline to a Connection of some kind or other with Britain than with us—This also remains to be proved—Two Circumstances however give it some appearance of Probability—It vizt. It is said and believed they talked with Sr Guy Carleton during the War, and ^they know that^ by remaining separate from the States, they ^will^ also remain uncharged with our Debts—

an Idea that may do much mischief has been very incautiously dropped and a ^where it should never have entered^ that the at Interests of the atlantic and western Parts of the united States are distinct, and that the Growth of the latter tending to diminish that of the former, the western People have Reason to be jealous of the northern—If Britain really means to do us Harm she will adopt and impress this Idea—

[Illegible] You will percieve, from the public papers that the Government of Massachusetts that ^has^ behaved with great Moderation and Condescension towards the Insurgents—more so than in my opinion was wise—obsta principiis always appeared to me to be a good maxim very applicable to such Cases.

Those malcontents undoubtedly mean more than the Redress of Grievances which their Leaders complain of, and there is little Doubt but that those Leaders have more extensive views than their Followers suspect. During the Winter they may perhaps continue quiet, but there is Reason to apprehend ^if during the^ Course of it they should be able to bring their affairs into System, and either obtain or be promised foreign Countenance & aid, I fea they will probably give us Trouble in the Spring—These People bear no Resemblance to an English Mob—They are far from being a ^are^ ^more^ ^temperate,^ cool and regular in their Conduct—They have hitherto abstained from Plunder, nor have they that I know of committed any outrages but such as the accomplishment of their Purpose made necessary—I hear today that one ^some^ of their Leaders [named Shatuc?] ^in one of the Counties^ has certainly been taken by a Party of Horse from Boston—3

In my letter to you of ^of^ the 27 October I informed you that the Board of Treasury was instructed to enclosed a Copy of an act of congress, authorizing you to settle the [Dou?] affair of Schweighauser, and directing the Board of Treasury to furnish you with the necessary Information—4 I presume therefore that such part of your Letter of the 11 Augt. as relates to that Matter, will be referred to that ^the^ Board, and that the Commissioners will write to you respecting it ^according to order^ will collect and transmit to you the Intelligence in Question. Your ^My^ Sentiments respecting the Discussion of this matter with the Court, perfectly correspond with mine yours.

The Situation of our captive Countrymen at Algiers is much to be lamented, and the more so as their Deliverance is difficult to effect—Congress cannot command money for that nor indeed for other very important Purposes. Their Requisitions produce little, and Government (if it may be called a Government) is so inadequate to its objects, that essential alterations or essential Evils must take place. I hope you have recd. the order of Congress for Mr Lambs Recall—another Copy of it is herewith enclosed5

It seems probable that the Delays of Portugal proceed from the Cause you suggest—We hear the Treaty between France and Britain will be concluded—if so, many Consequences will doubtless result from it to us as well as Portugal—some suspect that France and England will [pu concert a?] ^pursue^ similar Systems of colonial Commerce with us. Of this however some Doubts remain on my mind—This Prejudices of this Country is still exceedingly out of Harmony with Britain, and I think it shou Every commercial Privilege we have from France, above beyond what Britain admits, increases it and strengthens the Interest of ^our Predilection for^ France Throughout the States I am aware that some of the past Correspondents display their Pet Penetration and Intelligence by conveying [illegible] agreable Sensations with Court It appears to me, that the Court is not sufficiently apprized of the expediency of having a discreet, liberal minded minister here.6 It is important to both Countries that France should have none but exact and candid Representations [of these?] from hence—and altho that may possibly be the Case ^in general^ at present, yet [one of their Consuls [sent I have Reason on?] ^there is^ there is some Evidence of one of their Consuls having written, that we suspect their Sincerity in promoting our Peace with Barbary—Such Communications may tend to illustrate the Penetration and Intelligence of the writer, but I have no Reason to think ^them^ warranted by Facts, nor conducive to mutual Confidence—We know that european commercial nations never rejoice to see a Rival at peace with those Pirates, but we nevertheless think that France has more inducements to do us good than Evil, especially on ^that &^ such occasions.—

If our Governmt. could draw forth the Resources of the Country, which, notwithstanding all appearances to the contrary, are abundant, I should prefer war to Tribute, and carry on our mediterranean Trade in Vessels armed and manned at the public Expence. I daily become more and more confirmed in the opinion, that Governmt should be divided into executive, legislative & judicial Departments. Congress is unequal, to the first very fit for the second, but [should? improp] ^ill calculated for^ the third—So much Time is spent in Deliberation, that the Season for action often passes by before de they decide on what should be done, nor is there much more Secrecy than Expedition in their measures—These Inconveniences arise not from personal Disqualifications, but from the nature and construction of the Governmt.

If we ^congress^ had money to purchase Peace of Algiers ^or [de?] redeem the Captives there,^ it certainly would in my opinion under ^according to their present Ideas^ be well to lose no Time in doing ^both^ The latter, and at the same Time obtain every necessary Information respecting the former ^neither pains nor Expence, if within any Tolerable Limits, should be spared to ransom our fellow Citizens,^ but the Truth is that no ^money^ is to be expected at present from France, nor do I think it would be right to make new Loans, until we have at least some prospect of paying the Interest due on [our?] former ones.7 Our Country is fertile, abounding in useful Productions, and those Productions in Demand and bearing a good Price, yet Relaxation in Governmt. and Extravagance in Individuals, create much public and private Distress, & much public and private want of good Faith—

The public papers8 will tell you how much Reason we have to apprehend an Indian war, and to suspect that Britain instigates it.—In my opinion our Indian affairs have been ill managed. Details would be tedious. Indians have been murdered by our people in cold blood, and no Satisfaction given—we are taking their Lands from them before we want them nor are they pleased with the avidity with which we seek to acquire their Lands. Would it not be wiser gradually to extend our Settlements, as want of room should make it necessary, than to pitch our Tents through the wilderness in a great variety of places, from ^far^ distant from each other, and from those advantages of Education, Civilization, Law, and Government which compact Settlements & neighbourhood afford? Shall we not fill the Wilderness with white Indi Savages, instead of Law and will they not become more formidable to ^us^ than the tawny ones who now inhabit it?

As to the Sums of money expected from the Sale of those Lands, I suspect we shall be deceived, for at whatever price they may be sold, the collection & paymt. of it will not be easily accomplished—I have the honor to be &c.

John Jay

Dft, NNC (EJ: 5880). Endorsed: “… No. 58”. LbkC, DNA: Foreign Letters description begins Foreign Letters of the Continental Congress and Department of State, 1785–1790, RG 59, item 121, National Archives (M61). Accessed on Fold3.com. description ends , 224–30 (EJ: 248). Received 24 Jan. 1787. Enclosure: Duplicate of resolution of Congress recalling John Lamb, previously transmitted in JJ to TJ, 12 Oct. 1786. PTJ, description begins Julian T. Boyd, Charles T. Cullen et al., eds., The Papers of Thomas Jefferson (41 vols. to date; Princeton, N.J., 1950–) description ends 10: 596–99.

1JJ to TJ, 27 Oct. 1786, Dft, NNC (EJ: 5873); LbkC, DNA: Foreign Letters description begins Foreign Letters of the Continental Congress and Department of State, 1785–1790, RG 59, item 121, National Archives (M61). Accessed on Fold3.com. description ends , 211–15 (EJ: 2475); PTJ, description begins Julian T. Boyd, Charles T. Cullen et al., eds., The Papers of Thomas Jefferson (41 vols. to date; Princeton, N.J., 1950–) description ends 10: 488–90; DC, description begins William A. Weaver, ed., Diplomatic Correspondence of the United States of America, from the Signing of the Definitive Treaty of Peace, 10th September, 1783, to the Adoption of the Constitution, March 4, 1789 (7 vols.; Washington, D.C., 1833–34) description ends 3: 113–15; TJ to JJ, 11 Aug., DNA: PCC, item 87, 1: 588–90; PTJ, description begins Julian T. Boyd, Charles T. Cullen et al., eds., The Papers of Thomas Jefferson (41 vols. to date; Princeton, N.J., 1950–) description ends 10: 220–22: DC, description begins William A. Weaver, ed., Diplomatic Correspondence of the United States of America, from the Signing of the Definitive Treaty of Peace, 10th September, 1783, to the Adoption of the Constitution, March 4, 1789 (7 vols.; Washington, D.C., 1833–34) description ends 3: 116–18; and 13 Aug., DNA: PCC, item 87, 1: 638–39; PtC, DLC: Jefferson (EJ: 10132); PTJ, description begins Julian T. Boyd, Charles T. Cullen et al., eds., The Papers of Thomas Jefferson (41 vols. to date; Princeton, N.J., 1950–) description ends 10: 241–42; DC, description begins William A. Weaver, ed., Diplomatic Correspondence of the United States of America, from the Signing of the Definitive Treaty of Peace, 10th September, 1783, to the Adoption of the Constitution, March 4, 1789 (7 vols.; Washington, D.C., 1833–34) description ends 3: 125–28.

2In his letter of 11 Aug. TJ had enclosed an “Extract of the new System of English Politics” respecting North America, dated 14 July 1786 (RC, DLC: Jefferson; Tr, in Short’s hand, and translation by John Pintard, DNA: PCC, item 87, 1: 592–99; PrC of Short’s Tr, DLC: Jefferson; Tr, DNA: PCC, item 107, 1: 356), that had been forwarded in Chevalier de la Touche to Lafayette, 28 July 1786. It stated that when Sir Guy Carleton departed for Canada to serve as governor of the provinces of Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, Joseph Brant had instructions to “plague the Americans as much as possible”; that Brant left England “loaded with presents for himself and several other Indian chiefs who lived near the borders of Canada;” that “the Americans should be informed that quarrels would be fomented against them” to disturb their “System of Government”; and that the new states that were being formed would “sooner or later put themselves under the protection of England.” PTJ, description begins Julian T. Boyd, Charles T. Cullen et al., eds., The Papers of Thomas Jefferson (41 vols. to date; Princeton, N.J., 1950–) description ends 10: 222n. On instructions to Carleton, see also JJ to the Governor of Massachusetts, 22 Sept. 1786, above.

3Probably a reference to various newspaper reports about the capture of Middlesex County, Massachusetts, insurgents identified as [Job] Shattuck, [Oliver] Parker, and [Benjamin] Page, by a corps of volunteer light horse commanded by Col. [Benjamin] Hitchborn. See the Massachusetts Centinel, 2 and 9 Dec.; Salem Mercury, 2 and 9 Dec.; Massachusetts Gazette, 5 and 8 Dec.; and Middlesex Gazette, 11 Dec. 1786.

4For the act of Congress relative to settlement with Schweighauser and Dobrée, see the report of the Board of Treasury of 13 Oct. 1786, with the proposed resolution adopted on 16 Oct. 1786, DNA: PCC, item 138, 2: 577–79; JCC, description begins Worthington C. Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, D.C., 1904–37) description ends 31: 878–80.

5For the resolution of Congress of 26 Sept. 1786, recalling John Lamb, see JCC, description begins Worthington C. Ford et al., eds., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774–1789 (34 vols.; Washington, D.C., 1904–37) description ends 31: 692.

6In his letter to JJ of 1 Feb. 1787, TJ gave the following reasons for the failure to replace La Luzerne with a suitable French minister to the United States: “I formerly mentioned to you the hopes of preferment entertained by the Chevalr. de la Luzerne. they have been baffled by events, none of the vacancies taking place which had been expected. had I pressed his being ordered back, I have reason to believe the order would have been given. but he would have gone back in ill humour with Congress, he would have laid for ever at their door the failure of a promotion then viewed as certain, & this might have excited dispositions that would have disappointed us of the good we hoped from his return. the line I have observed with him has been to make him sensible that nothing was more desired by Congress than his return, but that they would not willingly press it so as to defeat him of a personal advantage. he sees his prospects fail, and will return in the approaching spring, unless something unexpected should turn up in his favor. in this case the Count de Moutier has the promise of succeeding to him, and, if I do not mistake his character, ^he^ would give great satisfaction. so that I think you may count on seeing the one or the other by midsummer.” PrC, DLC (EJ: 10141). LbkC, DNA: PCC, item 107, 1: 424–29.

8According to the OFA Journal description begins Daily Journals, Office of Foreign Affairs, 1784–1790, 2 vols., Papers of the Continental Congress, RG 360, item 127, National Archives (M247). Accessed Fold3.com. description ends for this date (EJ: 3770), JJ forwarded the newspapers from 27 Oct. to 14 Dec. 1786.

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