Notes of a conference held at Saint Ildefonso on the Wednesday ^Evening^ the 19 day of September 1781 between his Excellency the Count de Florida Blanca, and Mr. Jay agreeable to the appointment of the former.

The Count introduced the conference by asking for Major Franks, and why Mr. Jay did not bring him with him. Mr. Jay answered, that as Major Franks was not charged with the transaction of any business with his Excy. & had at a former interview answered such questions relative to American affairs as the Count had thought proper to ask him, Mr Jay did not think his attendance on this occasion necessary, as he supposed his Excellency meant to enter at present into the discussion of the Matters referred to in Mr. Jay’s last Letter.1

The Count then proceeded to enumerate the various obstacles arising from his ill health, the multiplicity of business which had so long subjected Mr. Jay to the delays he had hitherto experienced, and which for his part he could not but regret— That agreeable to his promise made to Mr. Jay soon after his arrival, & frequently afterwards repeated, he had attempted to commit to paper his sentiments on the various points on which the proposed treaties must turn, and altho’ he had made some progress in it, he had, for the reasons abovementioned, been obliged to leave it imperfect; that daily experience convinced him that his official business was too extensive, & various to admit of his application to other objects, especially as his indisposition often rendered it impracticable for him to pay a due attention to it— That he therefore conceived it necessary that some person, duly authorized to confer with Mr. Jay on these subjects, should be appointed by his Majesty— That he intended on Sunday next to recommend this measure to the King, to whom he would at the same time communicate the copy of Mr. Morris’ Letter to Mr. Jay which the latter had given him—2 That in order to the putting of this matter in proper train, it would be expedient for Mr. Jay previously to commit to paper his ideas of the outlines of the proposed treaties, and particularly to state the propositions he might think proper to make relative thereto— That he had been informed, that the treaties between France & America had been preceded by the like Measures; for that the American Commissioners had first offered a plan & propositions, and then Mr. Gerard was appointed to confer with them, before those treaties were drawn into the State they now appear, & finally concluded That the like proceedings were rendered particularly necessary in this case by the variety and importance of the points necessary to be adjusted between Spain and America— That in forming political connections between Nations, constant regard must be had to their reciprocal interests, and care taken, by previous arrangements, to avoid the inconveniences which would result from any clashing of interest. That three great points presented themselves as requiring great attention in forming the proposed connection between Spain, and America.

1st. The Aids requested by America, as stated in Mr. Morris’ letter, were very considerable— That it would be necessary on the part of Spain to determine—1st what pecuniary aids it might be in their power to grant either by loan or subsidy, as well as the time, place, & manner of payment; for that great punctuality was requisite in such transactions, as well that the royal engagements might be properly fulfilled, as that Congress might not be subjected to inconveniences & disappointments— That on the part of America, it must be ascertained; what compensation they should make, as well as the ^time and^ manner of doing it; and that it might be well to consider how far such compensation might be made in Shiptimber, or other productions of that Country— That a compensation would be indispensable, for that the King, being only the Guardian of his dominions, would not think himself justifiable in dispensing with the just rights of his People3

2ndly. That the commercial concerns of the two Countries was another point which would call for very accurate, & important regulations. That so far as this commerce would respect the United States, and old Spain, the difficulty would not be very great; for that such commerce being in a considerable degree permitted to other Nations, America ought also to participate in the benefits of it. But that with respect to the Spanish dominions in America, as all other Nations were excluded from any direct commerce with any part of them, the United States could not reasonably expect to be on a better footing than other Nations, & particularly the French, who were the near allies of Spain—

3rdly. That with respect to the proposed treaty of Alliance, Mr. Jay must be sensible that the several engagements, which would thereby be rendered necessary between the parties, the matters of boundary, and the navigation of the Mississippi would give occasion to several important articles, which ought to be maturely considered and well digested— To this end, he wished that Mr. Jay would immediately turn his thoughts on these ^Subjects^ and offer him such a set of propositions, as might become the basis of future conferences between him, & the person whom he expected his Majesty would appoint—4

The Count then took occasion to observe that he had long wished Mr. Jay had offered him such propositions, but that his Court had as yet received from Congress nothing but good words, & fair assurances, and that tho’ his Majesty had given them some little aids, yet they had discovered no disposition by acts to acknowledge them— Mr. Jay reminded his Excy. of his having at a very early day undertaken to commit to paper the outlines of the proposed treaties, and that the constant expectations of his perfecting it, had restrained Mr. Jay from offering any thing of the like nature on the Subject.5 That he could conceive of nothing in the power of Congress to do, which could more fully evidence their disposition to gratify his Majesty, than their having offered to recede from their claims to the Navigation of the Mississippi, tho’ the preservation of it was deemed of the highest importance to their constituents—6 The Count admitted the propriety of both these observations, & said he hoped that the delays which had so long embarrassed Mr. Jay would soon be terminated— Mr. Jay expressed his anxiety to be enabled to communicate to Congress some decided intelligence respecting the aids they might expect from this Court, to which the Count replied— That the sum requested was great, the expenses of the kingdom very expensive, and the means of obtaining the sums necessary to defray them, subject to many difficulties— That he would, as he had before mentioned, communicate Mr. Morris’ letter to the King, & until that was done, he could not be in capacity to say any thing further on the Subject— That as the appointment of a person, to confer with Mr. Jay, would rest with his Majesty, he could not say who in particular it would be, but he hoped, & was persuaded, that it would be some person well intentioned towards America— That he was the more confirmed in this expectation, from the friendly disposition which the King had early & constantly manifested towards that Country— That he would again repeat, what he had before told Mr. Jay to it— That the King, when acting in capacity of Mediator for a peace, had refused to permit that Country to be sacrificed— That since the rupture with Britain, tempting and advantageous offers had been made him to withdraw his protection from America, and conclude a separate peace—7 that he had rejected these offers, and still continued determined to support the States— That this conduct ought to be viewed as extremely generous, as no political connections, or engagements did then, or do as yet subsist between the two Countries— Mr. Jay assured his Excellency that the magnanimity of this conduct had made a deep impression on the people of America— That nothing but want of opportunity would ever prevent their expressing it more strongly than by words, and that the sense they entertained of it, had greatly influenced the late measure they had taken to comply with his Majesty’s desires— The Count then pressed Mr. Jay again to send him the Paper abovementioned before Sunday,8 adding that he sincerely wished nothing might be wanting to put the business in a proper train— That for his part, he had the best disposition towards America, as well as personal regard for Mr. Jay and, after adding some complimentary expressions relative to the Character of the caller, he concluded—